Comments on: Pastor Rich Nathan of Vineyard vs Christian Zionism http://www.evenatthedoors.com/blog/2010/01/25/pastor-rich-nathan-of-vineyard-vs-christian-zionism/ What in the world is going on? Biblical End-Times Prophecy Wed, 08 Feb 2012 04:48:38 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Joan AMADOR http://www.evenatthedoors.com/blog/2010/01/25/pastor-rich-nathan-of-vineyard-vs-christian-zionism/comment-page-1/#comment-3155 Joan AMADOR Mon, 26 Sep 2011 06:47:09 +0000 http://www.evenatthedoors.com/blog/?p=1112#comment-3155 I am disturbed over the fact that various people on this website and elsewhere have forgotten about the 6 day war . My understanding is that this event is what enlarged Israel's territory from it's 1967 borders. They were attacked on a high holy day, were completely taken by surprise, outnumbered, outmilitiaed but won the war and took the territory now under dispute. If this is indeed correct, would it not point to God's support as in days of old? Jewish occupied territory has been reported as flourishing and gracious to ALL other nationalities. As a matter of fact, the Palestinians who live in Jewish occupied territory flourish (better than in their own areas) as well and are treated with respect. I guess we should penalize the Jews for showing strength against the constant shellings they have to live with. I have never heard of another instance in which territory acceeded through war should be returned to the very people who provoked the war in the first place. We need to look at the whole truth, not just postulating on "fairness" Please reply. I am disturbed over the fact that various people on this website and elsewhere have forgotten about the 6 day war . My understanding is that this event is what enlarged Israel’s territory from it’s 1967 borders. They were attacked on a high holy day, were completely taken by surprise, outnumbered, outmilitiaed but won the war and took the territory now under dispute. If this is indeed correct, would it not point to God’s support as in days of old?
Jewish occupied territory has been reported as flourishing and gracious to ALL other nationalities. As a matter of fact, the Palestinians who live in Jewish occupied territory flourish (better than in their own areas) as well and are treated with respect. I guess we should penalize the Jews for showing strength against the constant shellings they have to live with.
I have never heard of another instance in which territory acceeded through war should be returned to the very people who provoked the war in the first place. We need to look at the whole truth, not just postulating on “fairness” Please reply.

]]> By: Dee http://www.evenatthedoors.com/blog/2010/01/25/pastor-rich-nathan-of-vineyard-vs-christian-zionism/comment-page-1/#comment-2028 Dee Sat, 15 Jan 2011 00:56:29 +0000 http://www.evenatthedoors.com/blog/?p=1112#comment-2028 Dustin, Reading your post, I fear you may be more influenced by your love or respect for your pastor than for the Word of God. I hope it's not the case, but you must watch it! The last days are perilous. Watch and pray! Dustin,

Reading your post, I fear you may be more influenced by your love or respect for your pastor than for the Word of God. I hope it’s not the case, but you must watch it! The last days are perilous. Watch and pray!

]]> By: Dustin http://www.evenatthedoors.com/blog/2010/01/25/pastor-rich-nathan-of-vineyard-vs-christian-zionism/comment-page-1/#comment-1932 Dustin Wed, 22 Dec 2010 04:02:40 +0000 http://www.evenatthedoors.com/blog/?p=1112#comment-1932 Thank you very much for your reply. i hope i didnt make you feel badly, i purposely opened be saying i appreciated your article. I could tell you were simply presenting you thoughts in a very thoughtful and productive way. You were very kind and i had no problem with any of it, I really only meant the comments posted by others were very negative in my opinion. i know we are all fallible but i dont think we should support such talk. i dont know how much moderator power you have or what your views of free speech, but i would appreciate if the overtly negative comments are deleted. To your eschatological doctrine, its tough because i see both sides. I was saved during the Revelation series Rich gave, i felt God spoke to me through Prov 14:4 "Where there are no oxen, the manger is clean, but with the strength of the ox comes an abundant harvest". It was a verse i remembered and always thought was pointless and obvious, but i saw it and the whole bible through a new lense of Christ where the ox is the Church and (ironically given my above post) not to give up on a sometimes messy church. It finally made more sense, and I felt God showed me that i really didnt know Him, because i never realized that its all really about Christ. To that end, i understand Rich's view on the land issue. Although i believe the land is Israel's as an everlasting covenent because it fits what i know of God nature, i dont feel that confident about that belief. Jesus never seemed to mind or take issue with the fact that he lived in a time when Israel was under roman rule. Others seemed to care but he never gave instruction on fighting for the promised land. Jesus also said of "the Law and the Prophets... [He came]... to fullfill them." (Matt 5:17) We all believe Jesus fullfilled the law, but do we really believe he fullfilled the prophets too? Isaiah talks of the "vineyard on the fertile hillside" (Is 5:1), and is constantly prophesying that there will be "a day" when everyone has there own vineyard. But its almost like Jesus is saying in John 15:1 "I am the true vine" that Isaiah is talking about. Its obvious when Isaiah talks about bringing Israel back that he's talking about Jesus, but Jesus gives us a hint that even prophecies about a vineyard or land could be about Him. You might say, thats just a prophesy, a vision of the future, but what God did was different, He made a promise to Abraham. I agree, it seems different, and the literal land prob should be theirs, but Paul even says that "No matter how many promises God has made, they are "Yes" in Christ." (2 Cor 1:20) But the best argument may be Gal 3:15-24 "The promises were spoken to Abraham and his seed. The Scripture does not say 'and to seeds' meaning many people, but 'and to your seed' meaning one person, who is Christ." Granted he is talking about the insufficiency of the Law to fulfill the promise of God, but he says "the Seed to whom the promise referred." Not only is he saying the whole purpose (and i'll add good purpose) of the Law is to "lead us" to Christ, and it does so because Jesus IS the Promise. The law leads us to the Promise, and the Promise makes us long to follow the Law. Whether or not the land was only promised to Abraham and not to other hebrews seems harder to know for sure. Also hard to know for sure is the timeline of Genesis. Jesus himself admits that He, and therefore probably the Father and the Spirit, starts by "speaking figuratively." (John 16:25). I say "starts by" because He says a day will come when it will be totally clear. God shows in the bible that He doesnt mind hiding his point inside a story. Genesis has so many similarities to the epic of Gilamesh as unbelievers will point out, but what are significant are the differences. In the epic the gods create man to serve them, but God says its to enjoy and have a relationship. in the epic the gods create the flood but get scared because they loose control of it, but God says He never lost control of the flood. In the epic the survivors made it because they were amazing sailors and fought back the flood, God says the survivors made it because they were holy and were protected by God. I believe the flood literally happened, but i my only point is that the story of the real event was written in the bible to speak those people of that time who knew the epic of gilgamesh first, and us second, and without knowing the context, its hard to interpret properly. The 7 days of creation point to the importance of rest, forward to the sabbath rest and point forward especially to Christ, and probably to so much more that we will find out in heaven. I personally believe that God made the earth in 7 literal days, but i think its a big mistake to fight about it. Look at Adam, God probably formed him to look like a 20 year old when he was only an hour old. i dont think there is any question that God, at the very least, gave the universe the appearance of age. the idea then that we would argue an unprovable point to unbelievers who already see the other fallen parts of us; our greed, our selfishness, etc, and we hand them "know it all" to the list. I just wish we would focus on telling them how much we mess up, and who our hope is. Where it comes from. When it comes to saying "hard to know" about what the bible means, i know it sounds liberal and wishy washy, but i strongly disagree with that viewpoint. Whatever Rich (or I) thinks about the end of the world timeline, beginning of world timeline, or promises to Abraham and the land of Israel in 2010 before the coming of the "that day" prophesied in Isaiah, this much is true; we both believe the most offense, most important, equally (in the world's eyes) hard to believe. We are believe that Jesus is the only way to God, that he literally healed the blind, raised the dead, and Himself rose from the dead. (and he and I are also very pro-life in our view) That part has never been in question in Rich's sermons or in my mind. and i re-iterate my concern that people would consider alienating "liberal christians" just because of his ideas in other areas. I say God bless republicans and democrats. Rich said (in the video you embedded) that saying you know Gods will takes away accountability to God. No question we've seen that in the past in all kinds of wars, fighting popes, slavery, oppression of indians, cults. Im not saying that people who are strongly aligned to a political party are that bad, but its worth examining in each of our hearts. When republicans know that Christians will vote for them no matter what, they loose accountablity. I totally agree with proirity voting, and that being pro-life is definately the most issue, but IF a republican is also against immigrants, the homeless, the uninsured, but for gambling, unfair benefits for weathly, and so on, then i think we keep them accountable if we stop supporting them. dont think im for the insurance law, i agree its almost certainly a disaster, but to not even act like helping the poor is a call of God (and ive heard people act that way) is major folly; Prov 21:13 "if a man shuts his ears to the cry of the poor, he too will cry out and not be answered". and republicans had a lot of time from 2000-2006 as a majority to institute the cross state insurance swap idea and tort reform and other good ideas to help the poor. and income redistribution definitely doesnt work but i dont think people should act disgusted as if the person suggesting it has an evil heart or is a secret communist. Sorry for going on but my main point is and has always been, no matter what your view on interpretation issues, we the church should look at our priorities before we start fighting with each other and with unbelievers. figure out what are truly the most important tenets of our faith, and know that good hearted, intellegent people who also believe the bible is infallible can have a different opinion on some of the interpretations of the texts at the beginning and at the end. in my opinion which i have just laid out, i believe its a bad idea, in some cases really hard to prove, and its results in us all being mean to each other and leading others away from Christ. again, James, i really dont mean you, your thesis is very kind and God bless you indeed!!! Thank you very much for your reply. i hope i didnt make you feel badly, i purposely opened be saying i appreciated your article. I could tell you were simply presenting you thoughts in a very thoughtful and productive way. You were very kind and i had no problem with any of it, I really only meant the comments posted by others were very negative in my opinion. i know we are all fallible but i dont think we should support such talk. i dont know how much moderator power you have or what your views of free speech, but i would appreciate if the overtly negative comments are deleted.
To your eschatological doctrine, its tough because i see both sides. I was saved during the Revelation series Rich gave, i felt God spoke to me through Prov 14:4 “Where there are no oxen, the manger is clean, but with the strength of the ox comes an abundant harvest”. It was a verse i remembered and always thought was pointless and obvious, but i saw it and the whole bible through a new lense of Christ where the ox is the Church and (ironically given my above post) not to give up on a sometimes messy church. It finally made more sense, and I felt God showed me that i really didnt know Him, because i never realized that its all really about Christ.
To that end, i understand Rich’s view on the land issue. Although i believe the land is Israel’s as an everlasting covenent because it fits what i know of God nature, i dont feel that confident about that belief. Jesus never seemed to mind or take issue with the fact that he lived in a time when Israel was under roman rule. Others seemed to care but he never gave instruction on fighting for the promised land. Jesus also said of “the Law and the Prophets… [He came]… to fullfill them.” (Matt 5:17) We all believe Jesus fullfilled the law, but do we really believe he fullfilled the prophets too? Isaiah talks of the “vineyard on the fertile hillside” (Is 5:1), and is constantly prophesying that there will be “a day” when everyone has there own vineyard. But its almost like Jesus is saying in John 15:1 “I am the true vine” that Isaiah is talking about. Its obvious when Isaiah talks about bringing Israel back that he’s talking about Jesus, but Jesus gives us a hint that even prophecies about a vineyard or land could be about Him.
You might say, thats just a prophesy, a vision of the future, but what God did was different, He made a promise to Abraham. I agree, it seems different, and the literal land prob should be theirs, but Paul even says that “No matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ.” (2 Cor 1:20)
But the best argument may be Gal 3:15-24 “The promises were spoken to Abraham and his seed. The Scripture does not say ‘and to seeds’ meaning many people, but ‘and to your seed’ meaning one person, who is Christ.” Granted he is talking about the insufficiency of the Law to fulfill the promise of God, but he says “the Seed to whom the promise referred.” Not only is he saying the whole purpose (and i’ll add good purpose) of the Law is to “lead us” to Christ, and it does so because Jesus IS the Promise. The law leads us to the Promise, and the Promise makes us long to follow the Law. Whether or not the land was only promised to Abraham and not to other hebrews seems harder to know for sure.
Also hard to know for sure is the timeline of Genesis. Jesus himself admits that He, and therefore probably the Father and the Spirit, starts by “speaking figuratively.” (John 16:25). I say “starts by” because He says a day will come when it will be totally clear. God shows in the bible that He doesnt mind hiding his point inside a story. Genesis has so many similarities to the epic of Gilamesh as unbelievers will point out, but what are significant are the differences. In the epic the gods create man to serve them, but God says its to enjoy and have a relationship. in the epic the gods create the flood but get scared because they loose control of it, but God says He never lost control of the flood. In the epic the survivors made it because they were amazing sailors and fought back the flood, God says the survivors made it because they were holy and were protected by God. I believe the flood literally happened, but i my only point is that the story of the real event was written in the bible to speak those people of that time who knew the epic of gilgamesh first, and us second, and without knowing the context, its hard to interpret properly. The 7 days of creation point to the importance of rest, forward to the sabbath rest and point forward especially to Christ, and probably to so much more that we will find out in heaven. I personally believe that God made the earth in 7 literal days, but i think its a big mistake to fight about it. Look at Adam, God probably formed him to look like a 20 year old when he was only an hour old. i dont think there is any question that God, at the very least, gave the universe the appearance of age. the idea then that we would argue an unprovable point to unbelievers who already see the other fallen parts of us; our greed, our selfishness, etc, and we hand them “know it all” to the list. I just wish we would focus on telling them how much we mess up, and who our hope is. Where it comes from.
When it comes to saying “hard to know” about what the bible means, i know it sounds liberal and wishy washy, but i strongly disagree with that viewpoint. Whatever Rich (or I) thinks about the end of the world timeline, beginning of world timeline, or promises to Abraham and the land of Israel in 2010 before the coming of the “that day” prophesied in Isaiah, this much is true; we both believe the most offense, most important, equally (in the world’s eyes) hard to believe. We are believe that Jesus is the only way to God, that he literally healed the blind, raised the dead, and Himself rose from the dead. (and he and I are also very pro-life in our view) That part has never been in question in Rich’s sermons or in my mind. and i re-iterate my concern that people would consider alienating “liberal christians” just because of his ideas in other areas. I say God bless republicans and democrats.
Rich said (in the video you embedded) that saying you know Gods will takes away accountability to God. No question we’ve seen that in the past in all kinds of wars, fighting popes, slavery, oppression of indians, cults. Im not saying that people who are strongly aligned to a political party are that bad, but its worth examining in each of our hearts. When republicans know that Christians will vote for them no matter what, they loose accountablity. I totally agree with proirity voting, and that being pro-life is definately the most issue, but IF a republican is also against immigrants, the homeless, the uninsured, but for gambling, unfair benefits for weathly, and so on, then i think we keep them accountable if we stop supporting them. dont think im for the insurance law, i agree its almost certainly a disaster, but to not even act like helping the poor is a call of God (and ive heard people act that way) is major folly; Prov 21:13 “if a man shuts his ears to the cry of the poor, he too will cry out and not be answered”. and republicans had a lot of time from 2000-2006 as a majority to institute the cross state insurance swap idea and tort reform and other good ideas to help the poor. and income redistribution definitely doesnt work but i dont think people should act disgusted as if the person suggesting it has an evil heart or is a secret communist.
Sorry for going on but my main point is and has always been, no matter what your view on interpretation issues, we the church should look at our priorities before we start fighting with each other and with unbelievers. figure out what are truly the most important tenets of our faith, and know that good hearted, intellegent people who also believe the bible is infallible can have a different opinion on some of the interpretations of the texts at the beginning and at the end. in my opinion which i have just laid out, i believe its a bad idea, in some cases really hard to prove, and its results in us all being mean to each other and leading others away from Christ. again, James, i really dont mean you, your thesis is very kind and God bless you indeed!!!

]]> By: James Jackson http://www.evenatthedoors.com/blog/2010/01/25/pastor-rich-nathan-of-vineyard-vs-christian-zionism/comment-page-1/#comment-1930 James Jackson Tue, 21 Dec 2010 05:10:30 +0000 http://www.evenatthedoors.com/blog/?p=1112#comment-1930 Thank you Dustin, First of all I'm glad you found salvation through Jesus Christ. Always remember that Christians are fallible but not so the Son of God. Disagreements among Christians has been around since the time of the Apostles. Paul reproved the early Christians for instituting a form of denominationalism, <em>"10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brethren. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, "I belong to Paul," or "I belong to Apollos," or "I belong to Cephas," or "I belong to Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?"</em> (1 Corinthians 1:10-13) Later on Paul even reproved Peter (also called Cephas) for behaving hypocritically because he was acting one way towards the Jewish Christians and another way towards the Gentile Christians, <em>"11 But when Cephas came to Antioch I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he ate with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 13 And with him the rest of the Jews acted insincerely, so that even Barnabas was carried away by their insincerity. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, "If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?"</em> (Galatians 2:11-14) I disagree with Pastor Nathan on eschatological doctrine but I believe he is a Christian and that he has heart towards the hurting and the lost and reaches out to them through his ministry. I also believe that Christians are concerned that the same type of liberalism that infiltrated the 19th and 20th Century Mainline churches is trying to rear its head in the modern evangelical churches. Denying the power of God and the Divine inspiration of His Word, the Holy Bible, led to the decline of the European Church and its influence on society. Thus, it is necessary for Christians to be watchful of any worldly influence trying to compromise the truths of God's Word creeping into Bible-believing Churches. Although the Gates of Hell will not prevail against the true Church of Christ, the Body of Christian believers, the Devil is a roaring lion moving to and fro looking to devour the vulnerable among us. Remember, it really doesn't matter what I say or Pastor Nathan says or anyone else says. It only matters what God says, As long as Christians teach and preach and try to live His Word then that should be the basis for the unity which Paul spoke of above. As I said however, Christians are fallible and sinful and so we may not reach that ideal in this world but we will in the eternal world. Keep your eyes on Him Dustin and do not be discouraged. Thank you Dustin,

First of all I’m glad you found salvation through Jesus Christ. Always remember that Christians are fallible but not so the Son of God. Disagreements among Christians has been around since the time of the Apostles. Paul reproved the early Christians for instituting a form of denominationalism, “10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brethren. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?” (1 Corinthians 1:10-13) Later on Paul even reproved Peter (also called Cephas) for behaving hypocritically because he was acting one way towards the Jewish Christians and another way towards the Gentile Christians, “11 But when Cephas came to Antioch I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he ate with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 13 And with him the rest of the Jews acted insincerely, so that even Barnabas was carried away by their insincerity. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?” (Galatians 2:11-14)

I disagree with Pastor Nathan on eschatological doctrine but I believe he is a Christian and that he has heart towards the hurting and the lost and reaches out to them through his ministry. I also believe that Christians are concerned that the same type of liberalism that infiltrated the 19th and 20th Century Mainline churches is trying to rear its head in the modern evangelical churches. Denying the power of God and the Divine inspiration of His Word, the Holy Bible, led to the decline of the European Church and its influence on society. Thus, it is necessary for Christians to be watchful of any worldly influence trying to compromise the truths of God’s Word creeping into Bible-believing Churches. Although the Gates of Hell will not prevail against the true Church of Christ, the Body of Christian believers, the Devil is a roaring lion moving to and fro looking to devour the vulnerable among us.

Remember, it really doesn’t matter what I say or Pastor Nathan says or anyone else says. It only matters what God says, As long as Christians teach and preach and try to live His Word then that should be the basis for the unity which Paul spoke of above. As I said however, Christians are fallible and sinful and so we may not reach that ideal in this world but we will in the eternal world. Keep your eyes on Him Dustin and do not be discouraged.

]]> By: Dustin http://www.evenatthedoors.com/blog/2010/01/25/pastor-rich-nathan-of-vineyard-vs-christian-zionism/comment-page-1/#comment-1929 Dustin Mon, 20 Dec 2010 00:06:18 +0000 http://www.evenatthedoors.com/blog/?p=1112#comment-1929 This was a good article, very thought provoking, thank you for being kind and honest with your opinions. I just wanted to say that it really makes me stumble to read these comments. It makes me want to give up on prayer when i read all these comments calling Rich an apostate and a hypocrite. How are we ever supposed to make a difference in the world when we love to alienate each other. I, just like most Christians, have strong opinions even when i dont really understand some of the bible, but i believe very strongly that the bible points more to your heart. I think we were supposed to be unified as a church, and live in harmony as much as we are able, and the name calling here is so discouraging, how do you think God feels when you insult your brother? Matt 7:18 says "a bad tree cannot bear good fruit," so how can pass such judgement? I guess im defensive because i was saved a the church Rich pastors, and i think he is a good man. In my opinion God has given us such a gift through the internet to be able to bring peace and bless our brothers, and reach more people with our message of joy, we shouldnt be using this gift as the pagans do, gossiping and slandering our brothers. I know we are warned to watch carefully for false teachers, but why not do this among Christians, bringing more and more attention in the local church until its resolved. Burning with anger while wanting to walk out of a service and then broadcasting your anger is not biblical in my opinion. Please, we need you!! use your words and prayers to make peace inside the church! Signed, a hypocrite, a former crack addict, and a former rapist, but a lover of you all and of Jesus This was a good article, very thought provoking, thank you for being kind and honest with your opinions.
I just wanted to say that it really makes me stumble to read these comments. It makes me want to give up on prayer when i read all these comments calling Rich an apostate and a hypocrite. How are we ever supposed to make a difference in the world when we love to alienate each other.
I, just like most Christians, have strong opinions even when i dont really understand some of the bible, but i believe very strongly that the bible points more to your heart. I think we were supposed to be unified as a church, and live in harmony as much as we are able, and the name calling here is so discouraging, how do you think God feels when you insult your brother? Matt 7:18 says “a bad tree cannot bear good fruit,” so how can pass such judgement?
I guess im defensive because i was saved a the church Rich pastors, and i think he is a good man.

In my opinion God has given us such a gift through the internet to be able to bring peace and bless our brothers, and reach more people with our message of joy, we shouldnt be using this gift as the pagans do, gossiping and slandering our brothers. I know we are warned to watch carefully for false teachers, but why not do this among Christians, bringing more and more attention in the local church until its resolved. Burning with anger while wanting to walk out of a service and then broadcasting your anger is not biblical in my opinion. Please, we need you!! use your words and prayers to make peace inside the church!
Signed, a hypocrite, a former crack addict, and a former rapist, but a lover of you all and of Jesus

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.evenatthedoors.com/blog/2010/01/25/pastor-rich-nathan-of-vineyard-vs-christian-zionism/comment-page-1/#comment-1913 Anonymous Fri, 10 Dec 2010 23:23:38 +0000 http://www.evenatthedoors.com/blog/?p=1112#comment-1913 I appreciate this post. I actually think you are easy on him. I have been tied to vineyard for a long time. When my husband and I moved back to my hometown and I returned to my home church I was SHOCKED at how it had changed, not just the building, not just the size, but the politics.... there were times things were said even in prayer where my husband and I struggled to not walk out. We moved 2 years later and I have heard from friends (not just occasional visitors either) how really left it has gotten. You know this happened to the church a generation ago. Churches split over liberalism. The ones that chose liberalisms at stake of the gospel now have dogma so far from the word of God it is super depressing. They don't believe the bible is the inherent word of God, they don't support Israel, they believe same sex marriage is okay, they are supportive of abortion, they reject creationism (as Rich does) etc. etc. etc..... parts of my family fell victim to this. I fear this is where the church that had SUCH an amazing impact on my life from 18-25 is heading... but by the grace of God. When left politics trump the bible you are in trouble. So sad... my heart aches. Many I know have left... still others sit silent afraid to leave the place they love but deeply disturbed by what is going on. Good job addressing Rich's letter. My father is a genius and he is about to write a good refute to it too. He said as a "genius trained Lawyer" (rich that is) he (my dad) can't believe the vast bullet holes in his thesis. Wallas and God's politics... sojourners. I really think that Wallis is evil and using the church. Not sure I could ever stand in his presence. God have mercy and hopefully I am wrong. I appreciate this post. I actually think you are easy on him. I have been tied to vineyard for a long time. When my husband and I moved back to my hometown and I returned to my home church I was SHOCKED at how it had changed, not just the building, not just the size, but the politics…. there were times things were said even in prayer where my husband and I struggled to not walk out. We moved 2 years later and I have heard from friends (not just occasional visitors either) how really left it has gotten. You know this happened to the church a generation ago. Churches split over liberalism. The ones that chose liberalisms at stake of the gospel now have dogma so far from the word of God it is super depressing. They don’t believe the bible is the inherent word of God, they don’t support Israel, they believe same sex marriage is okay, they are supportive of abortion, they reject creationism (as Rich does) etc. etc. etc….. parts of my family fell victim to this.

I fear this is where the church that had SUCH an amazing impact on my life from 18-25 is heading… but by the grace of God. When left politics trump the bible you are in trouble. So sad… my heart aches. Many I know have left… still others sit silent afraid to leave the place they love but deeply disturbed by what is going on.

Good job addressing Rich’s letter. My father is a genius and he is about to write a good refute to it too. He said as a “genius trained Lawyer” (rich that is) he (my dad) can’t believe the vast bullet holes in his thesis.

Wallas and God’s politics… sojourners. I really think that Wallis is evil and using the church. Not sure I could ever stand in his presence. God have mercy and hopefully I am wrong.

]]> By: Susan http://www.evenatthedoors.com/blog/2010/01/25/pastor-rich-nathan-of-vineyard-vs-christian-zionism/comment-page-1/#comment-1520 Susan Wed, 02 Jun 2010 14:25:35 +0000 http://www.evenatthedoors.com/blog/?p=1112#comment-1520 Hi James, I was glad to comment. I am happy that God has led us away from what I believe is an apostate church. True, Rich's teachings in front of the congregation at large are relatively okay for now, but I believe that in time, they will become more like what he says when he is not before his congregation. The man is a hypocrite. Hi James,

I was glad to comment. I am happy that God has led us away from what I believe is an apostate church. True, Rich’s teachings in front of the congregation at large are relatively okay for now, but I believe that in time, they will become more like what he says when he is not before his congregation. The man is a hypocrite.

]]> By: James Jackson http://www.evenatthedoors.com/blog/2010/01/25/pastor-rich-nathan-of-vineyard-vs-christian-zionism/comment-page-1/#comment-1481 James Jackson Fri, 21 May 2010 05:35:35 +0000 http://www.evenatthedoors.com/blog/?p=1112#comment-1481 I believe a lot of Jews see conservative evangelical Christians as friends of Israel. However, some are wary of the Christian support for Israel because they think Christians only want Israel to exist in order to inaugurate the End-Times. I support the Jews' right to the land of Israel because God gave them the land in an everlasting covenant. Both Jews and Gentiles are opposed to the Christian gospel and have been since Jesus' incarnation. Opposition is only going to increase and culminate with the rise of the Antichrist: <font color="#990000"><em>"1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."</em></font> (II Timothy 3:1-5) and <font color="#990000"><em>"3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless."</em></font> (II Peter 3:3-14) I believe a lot of Jews see conservative evangelical Christians as friends of Israel. However, some are wary of the Christian support for Israel because they think Christians only want Israel to exist in order to inaugurate the End-Times. I support the Jews’ right to the land of Israel because God gave them the land in an everlasting covenant. Both Jews and Gentiles are opposed to the Christian gospel and have been since Jesus’ incarnation. Opposition is only going to increase and culminate with the rise of the Antichrist: “1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.” (II Timothy 3:1-5) and “3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.” (II Peter 3:3-14)

]]> By: Jason http://www.evenatthedoors.com/blog/2010/01/25/pastor-rich-nathan-of-vineyard-vs-christian-zionism/comment-page-1/#comment-1474 Jason Tue, 18 May 2010 06:15:30 +0000 http://www.evenatthedoors.com/blog/?p=1112#comment-1474 UN-AMERICANS FIGHT FRANKLIN GRAHAM ! What kind of wine has Mikey Weinstein been drinking? As an anti-Christian Jewish supremacist and as the president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, he's doing all he can to create an anti-Jewish backlash and help bring about the predicted endtime Holocaust of Jews that'll be worse than Hitler's. Neither Falwell, Hagee nor any other Christian initiated this prediction. But Weinstein's ancient Hebrew prophets did. In the 13th and 14th chapters of his Old Testament book, Zechariah predicted that after Israel's rebirth ALL nations will eventually be against Israel and that TWO-THIRDS of all Jews will be killed! Malachi revealed the reasons: "Judah hath dealt treacherously" and "the Lord will cut off the man that doeth this." Haven't evangelicals generally been the best friends of Israel and persons perceived to be Jewish? Then please explain the hate-filled back-stabbing by David Letterman (and Sandra Bernhard, Kathy Griffin, Bill Maher etc.) against followers of Jesus such as Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann. Weinstein wouldn't dare assert that citizens on government property don't have freedom of speech or press freedom or freedom to assemble or to petition the government. But God-hater Weinstein maliciously wants to eliminate from government property the "free exercise" of religion - especially by evangelicals - a freedom found in the same First Amendment. Significantly, this freedom was purposely listed FIRST by America's founders! And Weinstein wouldn't try to foist "separation of church and state" on strongly-Jewish Israel, but he does try to foist this non-Constitution-mentioned phrase on strongly-Christian America. In light of Weinstein's Jewish protectionism and violently anti-Christian obsession, Christians in these endtimes should be reminded of Jesus' warning in Mark 13:9 (see also Luke 21:12) that "in the synagogues ye shall be beaten." Maybe it's time for some modern Paul Reveres to saddle up and shout "The Yiddish are Coming!" PS - Some, like Weinstein, are so treacherously anti-Christian they will even join hands at times with enemies, including Muslims, in order to silence evangelicals. It was Weinstein, BTW, who put pressure on the Pentagon to dis-invite Franklin Graham from speaking there on the National Day of Prayer! PPS - Weinstein is an echo of the anti-Christian, anti-American Hollywood which for a century has dangled every known vice before young people. We seriously wonder how soon the lethal worldwide "flood of filth" (global harming!) that Hollywood has created will engulf and destroy itself and help to bring to power the endtime Antichrist (a.k.a. the Man of Sin and the Wicked One)! UN-AMERICANS FIGHT FRANKLIN GRAHAM !

What kind of wine has Mikey Weinstein been drinking?
As an anti-Christian Jewish supremacist and as the president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, he’s doing all he can to create an anti-Jewish backlash and help bring about the predicted endtime Holocaust of Jews that’ll be worse than Hitler’s.
Neither Falwell, Hagee nor any other Christian initiated this prediction. But Weinstein’s ancient Hebrew prophets did.
In the 13th and 14th chapters of his Old Testament book, Zechariah predicted that after Israel’s rebirth ALL nations will eventually be against Israel and that TWO-THIRDS of all Jews will be killed!
Malachi revealed the reasons: “Judah hath dealt treacherously” and “the Lord will cut off the man that doeth this.”
Haven’t evangelicals generally been the best friends of Israel and persons perceived to be Jewish? Then please explain the hate-filled back-stabbing by David Letterman (and Sandra Bernhard, Kathy Griffin, Bill Maher etc.) against followers of Jesus such as Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann.
Weinstein wouldn’t dare assert that citizens on government property don’t have freedom of speech or press freedom or freedom to assemble or to petition the government.
But God-hater Weinstein maliciously wants to eliminate from government property the “free exercise” of religion – especially by evangelicals – a freedom found in the same First Amendment. Significantly, this freedom was purposely listed FIRST by America’s founders!
And Weinstein wouldn’t try to foist “separation of church and state” on strongly-Jewish Israel, but he does try to foist this non-Constitution-mentioned phrase on strongly-Christian America.
In light of Weinstein’s Jewish protectionism and violently anti-Christian obsession, Christians in these endtimes should be reminded of Jesus’ warning in Mark 13:9 (see also Luke 21:12) that “in the synagogues ye shall be beaten.”
Maybe it’s time for some modern Paul Reveres to saddle up and shout “The Yiddish are Coming!”

PS – Some, like Weinstein, are so treacherously anti-Christian they will even join hands at times with enemies, including Muslims, in order to silence evangelicals. It was Weinstein, BTW, who put pressure on the Pentagon to dis-invite Franklin Graham from speaking there on the National Day of Prayer!
PPS – Weinstein is an echo of the anti-Christian, anti-American Hollywood which for a century has dangled every known vice before young people. We seriously wonder how soon the lethal worldwide “flood of filth” (global harming!) that Hollywood has created will engulf and destroy itself and help to bring to power the endtime Antichrist (a.k.a. the Man of Sin and the Wicked One)!

]]> By: James Jackson http://www.evenatthedoors.com/blog/2010/01/25/pastor-rich-nathan-of-vineyard-vs-christian-zionism/comment-page-1/#comment-1460 James Jackson Sat, 15 May 2010 05:00:10 +0000 http://www.evenatthedoors.com/blog/?p=1112#comment-1460 First of all, thank you for responding to my article. I too found it troubling that Pastor Nathan aligned himself with Jim Wallis and Sojourners. I also watched the video I believe you were referring to in your post and include it here for others to view: <br /><object width="375" height="301"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Pd3fCfTZPrg&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Pd3fCfTZPrg&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="375" height="301"></embed></object><br /> I am very familiar with the liberal leanings of this organization. I read the God's Politics blog frequently and have debated with some adherents of the Sojourners organization on it (see <a title="Middle East Peace and Zionism" href="http://blog.sojo.net/009/04/16/four-points-toward-peace-in-the-middle-east/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">"Four Points Toward Peace in the Middle East"</a>). I have also attended a few of Pastor Nathan's services and generally have no disagreement with most of the teachings I heard. The one area of strong disagreement I had was when he taught on End-Times prophecy. His tone was denigrating and mocking towards Christians who may hold to some form of dispensationalism. In this area of theology I believe he, like Sojourners, is misguided. One thread of consistency I find in the Sojourners' writings is that they accuse conservative Christians of mistranslating, misinterpreting, or misapplying Biblical scripture passages. The reason they do this is because the plain reading of the Bible does not fit their worldview. I am afraid Pastor Nathan falls into this trap when it comes to End-Times prophecy in general and the biblical view of the Jewish nation of Israel in particular. I am glad that you and your daughter are happy at your new church. Thank you again for responding on my blog. First of all, thank you for responding to my article. I too found it troubling that Pastor Nathan aligned himself with Jim Wallis and Sojourners. I also watched the video I believe you were referring to in your post and include it here for others to view:

I am very familiar with the liberal leanings of this organization. I read the God’s Politics blog frequently and have debated with some adherents of the Sojourners organization on it (see “Four Points Toward Peace in the Middle East”). I have also attended a few of Pastor Nathan’s services and generally have no disagreement with most of the teachings I heard. The one area of strong disagreement I had was when he taught on End-Times prophecy. His tone was denigrating and mocking towards Christians who may hold to some form of dispensationalism. In this area of theology I believe he, like Sojourners, is misguided. One thread of consistency I find in the Sojourners’ writings is that they accuse conservative Christians of mistranslating, misinterpreting, or misapplying Biblical scripture passages. The reason they do this is because the plain reading of the Bible does not fit their worldview. I am afraid Pastor Nathan falls into this trap when it comes to End-Times prophecy in general and the biblical view of the Jewish nation of Israel in particular. I am glad that you and your daughter are happy at your new church. Thank you again for responding on my blog.

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