(January 25, 2010) While surfing the web I came across an email that Pastor Rich Nathan of the Vineyard Columbus church sent to his congregation in 2006. It concerned the Middle East peace process and the Arab-Israeli conflict. I have visited Pastor Nathan’s church a few times and was impressed by the work that he and his congregation are doing to help those in need and their desire to further the kingdom of God. However, the one area of disagreement I have with Pastor Nathan is in the realm of biblical prophecy and the nation of Israel. The email he sent to his congregation highlights some of the areas of this disagreement. Therefore I will respond to the various points discussed in this email, some of which I agree with and others I don’t. I will post the entire email below with my responses interspersed in blue font.
Can There Be Peace In The Middle East?
Recent events in the Middle East have led many to wonder whether there can be any framework for peace between Jews and Arabs in the Middle East. The Iranian President, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, has repeatedly made controversial statements questioning the Holocaust, and criticized European laws against Holocaust denial. According to numerous media reports, he stated that “they have invented a myth that Jews were massacred.”
In July, Hezbollah para-military forces fired rockets and mortars into Israel resulting in the death of eight Israeli soldiers. Another Hezbollah unit crossed the border and seized two Israeli soldiers. Israel responded with massive air strikes killing over a thousand people, mostly Lebanese civilians, and displacing nearly one million Lebanese citizens. At the end of July, Israeli air strikes hit an apartment building in Qana. Human Rights Watch later confirmed that at least 28 died, of which 16 were children, with 13 more still missing.
The conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians continues unabated. The Palestinians interpreted Ariel Sharon’s visit to the Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem (accompanied by a thousand police officers) as an act of extreme provocation. It became the event which sparked the second Intifada in which Palestinians took this to the streets in protest. These protests became more and more violent in the ensuing months with a series of suicide bombings.
Both Jews and Arabs can cite a laundry list of injustices suffered at the hands of the other side. Both have become so vividly identified with their own sufferings that they have become blinded to the very real pain suffered by the other. Indeed, it has become a litmus test of allegiance to one’s own side to minimize, ignore, or distort the other side’s pain and to deny the other side’s right to exist as a nation.
Can Christians inside and outside of the Middle East play a role in bringing peace? We who follow the Prince of Peace must first publicly repent of our own complicity in the terrible tragedy that has befallen Jews and Muslims. Before the Christian church will have any credibility in speaking a word of reconciliation, the church must take the massive log out of our own eye. Only then will we see clearly enough to take the splinter out of the eyes of our Jewish and Muslim brothers and sisters.
Where shall we begin? Each church must examine its own history and ask forgiveness from Jews and Muslims for the crimes perpetuated against these two great peoples. Regarding the Jews, the Eastern Orthodox Church might declare a day of mourning and repentance for the numerous anti-Semitic statements by the fourth century patriarch John Chrysostom, who among other things, said this about the Jews: The Jews are the most worthless of all men – they are lecherous, greedy, rapacious – they worship the devil, their religion is a sickness…the Jews are the odious assassins of Christ and for killing God there is no expiation possible, no indulgence or pardon. Christians may never cease vengeance and the Jews must live in servitude forever. God always hated the Jews and whoever has intercourse with the Jews will be rejected on Judgment Day. It is incumbent upon all Christians to hate the Jews.
Lutherans could join in that day of mourning and repentance for statements made by Martin Luther in which he said: [We must] set their synagogues on fire, and whatever does not burn up should be covered or spread over with dirt so that no one may ever be able to see a cinder or stone of it…in order that God may see that we are Christians…their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed…they should be deprived of their prayer books and Talmuds…their rabbis must be forbidden to teach under the threat of death.
And Roman Catholics could certainly join in mourning and repentance for their long history of anti-Semitism. Consider this statement by Thomas Aquinas: It would be perfectly licit to hold the Jews, because of their crucifying the Lord, in perpetual servitude.
Of course, since the Holocaust, Jews have ceased to take the moral credibility of the church seriously. 90% of Germans before the war and in all probability, an even larger proportion of Poles, attended church weekly. Yet it is a tragic fact of history that many of these churchgoers participated in the extermination of European Jewry and very, very few raised a voice of protest or actually engaged in the rescue and protection of Jews.
And it would be fitting regarding this day of Christian repentance and mourning to confess and grieve over the church’s treatment of Muslims for the past thousand years. Where shall we begin in our repentance regarding Muslims?
The Crusades wouldn’t be a bad starting point. When Christian knights from Western Europe recaptured Jerusalem from the Muslims, they massacred the entire population of the city, both Muslims and Jews. Muslims were burned alive in mosques during the retaking of the Holy Land.
I agree that Christians should ask for forgiveness for the sins committed in the name of Jesus Christ throughout history against other peoples and races. If we are sincere then some may come to understand the love of Christ. I also respect Pastor Nathan’s heart in this matter.
More recently, the world stood by silently as tens of thousands of Muslims were slaughtered by Orthodox and Roman Catholic Christians in the former Yugoslavia. Following 9/11, Evangelical and Pentecostal Christians showed remarkable insensitivity to Muslim sensibilities, almost going out of their way to offend and provoke Muslims. Thus, Franklin Graham said: “I believe Islam is a very evil and wicked religion.” Benny Hinn said, concerning the Palestinian/Israeli conflict: “We are on God’s side. This is not a war between Arabs and Jews. It is a war between God and the devil. Jerry Falwell called the prophet of Islam, Muhammad, a “terrorist” on CBS’s 60 Minutes. Pat Robertson said that Islam is “a monumental scam,” and claimed the prophet Muhammad was “an absolutely wild-eyed fanatic…a robber and brigand…a killer.” And, of course, Christian Zionists refuse to acknowledge that Palestinians have any legitimate claim to any part of the Holy Land thus eliminating their role as impartial mediators of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.
The issue concerning the nature of other religions is a little more complex. Jesus Christ said that He was the only way to salvation (John 14:6). Thus, if a religion keeps people from obtaining salvation, who benefits from that? Certainly not the adherents of these non-Christian religions. Conversely, getting in people’s faces as some of these quotes do is not helpful in furthering the kingdom of God. Showing them the better way of the love of Christ towards them and helping them understand the love of a personal God through the sacrifice of His Son will bear good fruit.
Following repentance, we Christians must reject a false interpretation of the ancient promises made by God to Abraham. It is simply not the case that the promises made to Abraham implies the biblical right of Jews to control the entirety of the Holy Land in the 21st century. God’s gift of the land to Abraham, according to the Old and New Testaments, was made with a view of God revealing himself eventually to the whole human race. The gift of the land was not an end in itself, but a means of God extending his love to the ends of the earth (for more on this huge issue, see Whose Promised Land? The Continuing Crisis Over Israel and Palestine by Colin Chapman). It is entirely biblical to promote a two-sided partition of the Holy Land, with Jews and Muslims living side-by-side in peace.
Here I disagree with not only the premise of Pastor Nathan’s position but also with the tenor of it. He declares that Christians must reject a false interpretation of the ancient promises…in the 21st century. It comes across to me that he is saying prophecies written 2500 years ago have little validity in our modern age. I have heard unbelievers similarly say the Bible is antiquated and no longer relevant. Biblical prophecy was relevant leading up to the first coming of Jesus and is just as relevant leading up to His second coming. If I misunderstood his tone then why did he use the adjective “ancient” in conjunction with the word “prophecies” and then follow it up with a reference to the “21st century”? As far as the false interpretations, God’s word could not be more clear when it comes to the land of Israel. He declares that He gave the land to the Jews for an everlasting covenant at the beginning of Jewish history with His chosen ones Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and their Jewish descendants. He said in the Torah that if the Jews obeyed Him they would remain in the land of Israel. If they disobeyed Him He would remove them from the land. He declares that His eyes are always on the land of Israel and that He has chosen it for His habitation. In the Prophets God states that in the future He will bring the Jews back to the land and they will never be plucked out of it again. The prophet Daniel says that God sets up and brings down rulers and nations. How then did the Jews regain the land of Israel without God’s approval since He is the one who decides when they are removed from the land or when they return to it? I’m not sure why Pastor Nathan is unclear on what the Bible says concerning this issue. The heart of a Christian should never trump the truth of God’s word no matter how good their intentions may be.
We Christians must renounce the unwise view that more weapons and a greater military buildup in the Middle East will somehow bring peace to that region. We Christians must humbly invite Jews and Muslims to acknowledge the suffering and the pain each has caused the other. We must further encourage the view that the land belongs to God and not to the Jews or to the Muslims.
I agree that weapons will not bring peace to the Middle East. Pastor Nathan rightly states that the land of Israel belongs to God. And God declares in His word that He gave it to the Jews for an everlasting covenant.
One of the most helpful perspectives on this conflict was offered by Naim Ateek, a Palestinian Christian priest. Father Ateek said this:
The Palestinians need to become conscious of and sensitive to the horror of the Holocaust, Nazi Germany’s attempt to exterminate the Jews. Granted the Holocaust was not a Middle Eastern phenomenon, and the Palestinians had nothing to do with it; nevertheless, we need to understand the extent of the trauma for the Jews…we as Palestinians have refused to accept, much less to internalize, the horrible tragedy of the Holocaust. We have resisted even acknowledging it, believing that we have been subjected to our own Holocaust at the hands of the Jews. As we adopt a new attitude vis-a-vis the Holocaust…we may candidly acknowledge that the only justification that the Palestinians will accept for the creation of a Jewish State in Palestine is the Holocaust. It was the Holocaust and only the Holocaust that necessitated a home for the Jews. The Palestinians have to come to accept giving the Jews the best part of Palestine (Western Palestine), not because they had any right to it, not because of the Balfour Declaration, and not even because of anti-Semitism, but because of the Holocaust.
However, Palestinian Christians should be open to the fact that God’s word declares the land belongs to the Jews. To not do so is to deny the truth of the Scriptures that proclaim their Savior.
Father Ateek went on to address the Jews saying:
Jews in Israel must approach the Palestinians saying: “We are sorry that we came to you with arrogance and a feeling of superiority. We came with good and not so good reasons. But we are now here in the land. Forgive us for the wrong and the injustice that we have caused you. We took part of your country. We ignored you. We pretended that you did not exist, or even worse, that you did not matter. We stereotyped you, convincing others that you are all terrorists. We have refused to recognize that you have any rights, while we have insisted that you should recognize and legitimate our right to your land. We have insisted and convinced the United States and others to insist that you recognize our claim to your land. We have wronged you. Your own country of Palestine used to be our country 2000 years ago. We still have many cherished historic memories that keep pulling us to it. It is ‘our Holy Land’ too, our ‘Promised Land’ also. But there is room for both of us here, both Jews and Arabs.”
God commanded the Jews to take the land of Canaan from the people who had lived there for hundreds of years. Was God wrong for doing this? If you are a Christian you would have to answer no He was not wrong. As stated above God decides when the Jews live in the land. Is it possible that it is God’s will for the land to return to the Jews? If it is then is He wrong for doing it again at the expense of others? Having said that though Jews should not be mistreating Arabs and Arabs should not be mistreating Jews.
Is there any hope for peace in the Middle East? I believe there is. But the conditions for peace have plainly been laid out by the Prince of Peace, Jesus the Messiah. There can be no peace until individuals, religions and nations are willing to acknowledge not only their own pain and their own injustices suffered, but the pain and injustice suffered by their enemies, as well as the pain and suffering perpetuated at our own hands. A willingness to acknowledge the pain of the other is the first step towards creating a just and lasting peace.
I too believe there will be peace in the Middle East. But it won’t happen until Jesus comes again to set up His kingdom on earth and reign from Jerusalem. Hamas and Hezbollah leaders have stated they will never recognize the state of Israel. Thus the Jews will keep fighting for their survival. The Bible says that by “mercy and truth” iniquity is purged. Christians’ hearts should be merciful towards others but also truthful even if we may not like the outcome of such truths. Pastor Nathan has a heart for God as is evidenced by his and his church’s outreach to the lost. On the subject of who the land belongs to however, I believe he is misguided. I discuss the subject of the land of Israel in several articles on my website. You can read them here:
Does the land of Israel belong to the Jews?
Christian Zionism: Christians and the Jews
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Tags: Christian Zionism, Israel, Jesus Christ, Palestine, Rich Nathan, Vineyard Church
I agree with your propositions. As a former attender of Vineyard Church of Columbus, I am appaled by the ever-stronger direction of Pastor Rich Nathan away from what the Bible says and into American liberalism. You’re right. When he uses terminology such as “ancient prophecies”, he’s exposing his opinion that many parts of the Bible are no longer valid today. This sermon is not the only example of that.
I have visited Vineyard Columbus a few times and have family members who attend this church. I liked some of Pastor Nathan’s teachings but when he preached on biblical prophecy he did so with an almost mocking tone towards those who believe in some form of dispensationalism. In 2008 he allowed the very liberal Sojourners leader Jim Wallis to speak at his church (Justice Revival!). I know that my pastor and several other central Ohio Vineyard pastors sent Rich Nathan a letter reproving him for allowing Mr. Wallis to speak at his church. I believe Pastor Nathan is misguided in his beliefs about End-Times prophecy in general and the modern nation of Israel in particular.
I am also a former attender of Vineyard Columbus. I had been a member there since 1997, but my daughter and I left after learning more about Jim Wallis’ Marxist beliefs and even spotting his name on the communist party USA website, citing how Wallis was helping to inject their agenda into formerly conservative evangelical churches. I also discovered writings and even a video by Rich on YouTube where he denigrates conservative Christians. Rich wrote mean-spirited things on Wallis’ God’s Politics blog right before the so-called justice revival. We were called “corner dwellers” who got “mean and mad” when other Christians associated with the “wrong people.” He called conservative Christians Pharisees and noted their supposed hypocrisy. He mocked conservative views of the Bible and said conservatives, like the Pharisees, were always on the lookout for “supposed theological errors.” Pardon me, but the bible tells us to not associate with false teachers and those pushing a false gospel, which is what Wallis is doing. Wallis believes that income redistribution by the GOVERNMENT is the heart of the gospel message! There is also a video of Rich on YouTube stating that conservative Christians are similar to SECULAR liberals in their ideology. In other words, only liberal Christians are REAL Christians who are pleasing to God. I haven’t heard Rich say anything positive about conservative Christians in the last 3-4 years. It’s always hateful and derisive, I guess to appease the liberal people they’re now catering to at Vineyard Columbus. I am glad to hear that other Vineyard pastors confronted Rich about the wrong direction of what used to be a wonderful church. We are now attending the new church started by one of those pastors who resigned from the Vineyard movement because of the very issues I’ve described. Confrontation will not do any good at VC, however. My daughter and I also tried to confront these things, but were pretty much blown off by one of the leaders there. All he did was make excuses defending what they are doing. He hardly listened to anything we had to say. He seemed to think that Fox News and Glenn Beck were to blame for our concerns, even though we told him it had been more than a year since we watched Fox News and that we’ve never watched Glenn Beck. Listening to him was like listening to someone recite the same accusations and put-downs that other “liberals” use against conservative Christians. He even said that so much more could be done for the poor by getting the government involved! As if God is not big enough or good enough to help the poor through His church, as He has always done throughout history! He also (ridiculously) claimed that conservative Christians were still welcome at Vineyard. Oh, really? I don’t think so. All we can do is pray that God will open their eyes.
First of all, thank you for responding to my article. I too found it troubling that Pastor Nathan aligned himself with Jim Wallis and Sojourners. I also watched the video I believe you were referring to in your post and include it here for others to view:
I am very familiar with the liberal leanings of this organization. I read the God’s Politics blog frequently and have debated with some adherents of the Sojourners organization on it (see “Four Points Toward Peace in the Middle East”). I have also attended a few of Pastor Nathan’s services and generally have no disagreement with most of the teachings I heard. The one area of strong disagreement I had was when he taught on End-Times prophecy. His tone was denigrating and mocking towards Christians who may hold to some form of dispensationalism. In this area of theology I believe he, like Sojourners, is misguided. One thread of consistency I find in the Sojourners’ writings is that they accuse conservative Christians of mistranslating, misinterpreting, or misapplying Biblical scripture passages. The reason they do this is because the plain reading of the Bible does not fit their worldview. I am afraid Pastor Nathan falls into this trap when it comes to End-Times prophecy in general and the biblical view of the Jewish nation of Israel in particular. I am glad that you and your daughter are happy at your new church. Thank you again for responding on my blog.
Hi James,
I was glad to comment. I am happy that God has led us away from what I believe is an apostate church. True, Rich’s teachings in front of the congregation at large are relatively okay for now, but I believe that in time, they will become more like what he says when he is not before his congregation. The man is a hypocrite.
UN-AMERICANS FIGHT FRANKLIN GRAHAM !
What kind of wine has Mikey Weinstein been drinking?
As an anti-Christian Jewish supremacist and as the president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, he’s doing all he can to create an anti-Jewish backlash and help bring about the predicted endtime Holocaust of Jews that’ll be worse than Hitler’s.
Neither Falwell, Hagee nor any other Christian initiated this prediction. But Weinstein’s ancient Hebrew prophets did.
In the 13th and 14th chapters of his Old Testament book, Zechariah predicted that after Israel’s rebirth ALL nations will eventually be against Israel and that TWO-THIRDS of all Jews will be killed!
Malachi revealed the reasons: “Judah hath dealt treacherously” and “the Lord will cut off the man that doeth this.”
Haven’t evangelicals generally been the best friends of Israel and persons perceived to be Jewish? Then please explain the hate-filled back-stabbing by David Letterman (and Sandra Bernhard, Kathy Griffin, Bill Maher etc.) against followers of Jesus such as Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann.
Weinstein wouldn’t dare assert that citizens on government property don’t have freedom of speech or press freedom or freedom to assemble or to petition the government.
But God-hater Weinstein maliciously wants to eliminate from government property the “free exercise” of religion – especially by evangelicals – a freedom found in the same First Amendment. Significantly, this freedom was purposely listed FIRST by America’s founders!
And Weinstein wouldn’t try to foist “separation of church and state” on strongly-Jewish Israel, but he does try to foist this non-Constitution-mentioned phrase on strongly-Christian America.
In light of Weinstein’s Jewish protectionism and violently anti-Christian obsession, Christians in these endtimes should be reminded of Jesus’ warning in Mark 13:9 (see also Luke 21:12) that “in the synagogues ye shall be beaten.”
Maybe it’s time for some modern Paul Reveres to saddle up and shout “The Yiddish are Coming!”
PS – Some, like Weinstein, are so treacherously anti-Christian they will even join hands at times with enemies, including Muslims, in order to silence evangelicals. It was Weinstein, BTW, who put pressure on the Pentagon to dis-invite Franklin Graham from speaking there on the National Day of Prayer!
PPS – Weinstein is an echo of the anti-Christian, anti-American Hollywood which for a century has dangled every known vice before young people. We seriously wonder how soon the lethal worldwide “flood of filth” (global harming!) that Hollywood has created will engulf and destroy itself and help to bring to power the endtime Antichrist (a.k.a. the Man of Sin and the Wicked One)!
I believe a lot of Jews see conservative evangelical Christians as friends of Israel. However, some are wary of the Christian support for Israel because they think Christians only want Israel to exist in order to inaugurate the End-Times. I support the Jews’ right to the land of Israel because God gave them the land in an everlasting covenant. Both Jews and Gentiles are opposed to the Christian gospel and have been since Jesus’ incarnation. Opposition is only going to increase and culminate with the rise of the Antichrist: “1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.” (II Timothy 3:1-5) and “3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.” (II Peter 3:3-14)
I appreciate this post. I actually think you are easy on him. I have been tied to vineyard for a long time. When my husband and I moved back to my hometown and I returned to my home church I was SHOCKED at how it had changed, not just the building, not just the size, but the politics…. there were times things were said even in prayer where my husband and I struggled to not walk out. We moved 2 years later and I have heard from friends (not just occasional visitors either) how really left it has gotten. You know this happened to the church a generation ago. Churches split over liberalism. The ones that chose liberalisms at stake of the gospel now have dogma so far from the word of God it is super depressing. They don’t believe the bible is the inherent word of God, they don’t support Israel, they believe same sex marriage is okay, they are supportive of abortion, they reject creationism (as Rich does) etc. etc. etc….. parts of my family fell victim to this.
I fear this is where the church that had SUCH an amazing impact on my life from 18-25 is heading… but by the grace of God. When left politics trump the bible you are in trouble. So sad… my heart aches. Many I know have left… still others sit silent afraid to leave the place they love but deeply disturbed by what is going on.
Good job addressing Rich’s letter. My father is a genius and he is about to write a good refute to it too. He said as a “genius trained Lawyer” (rich that is) he (my dad) can’t believe the vast bullet holes in his thesis.
Wallas and God’s politics… sojourners. I really think that Wallis is evil and using the church. Not sure I could ever stand in his presence. God have mercy and hopefully I am wrong.
This was a good article, very thought provoking, thank you for being kind and honest with your opinions.
I just wanted to say that it really makes me stumble to read these comments. It makes me want to give up on prayer when i read all these comments calling Rich an apostate and a hypocrite. How are we ever supposed to make a difference in the world when we love to alienate each other.
I, just like most Christians, have strong opinions even when i dont really understand some of the bible, but i believe very strongly that the bible points more to your heart. I think we were supposed to be unified as a church, and live in harmony as much as we are able, and the name calling here is so discouraging, how do you think God feels when you insult your brother? Matt 7:18 says “a bad tree cannot bear good fruit,” so how can pass such judgement?
I guess im defensive because i was saved a the church Rich pastors, and i think he is a good man.
In my opinion God has given us such a gift through the internet to be able to bring peace and bless our brothers, and reach more people with our message of joy, we shouldnt be using this gift as the pagans do, gossiping and slandering our brothers. I know we are warned to watch carefully for false teachers, but why not do this among Christians, bringing more and more attention in the local church until its resolved. Burning with anger while wanting to walk out of a service and then broadcasting your anger is not biblical in my opinion. Please, we need you!! use your words and prayers to make peace inside the church!
Signed, a hypocrite, a former crack addict, and a former rapist, but a lover of you all and of Jesus
Thank you Dustin,
First of all I’m glad you found salvation through Jesus Christ. Always remember that Christians are fallible but not so the Son of God. Disagreements among Christians has been around since the time of the Apostles. Paul reproved the early Christians for instituting a form of denominationalism, “10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brethren. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?” (1 Corinthians 1:10-13) Later on Paul even reproved Peter (also called Cephas) for behaving hypocritically because he was acting one way towards the Jewish Christians and another way towards the Gentile Christians, “11 But when Cephas came to Antioch I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he ate with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 13 And with him the rest of the Jews acted insincerely, so that even Barnabas was carried away by their insincerity. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?” (Galatians 2:11-14)
I disagree with Pastor Nathan on eschatological doctrine but I believe he is a Christian and that he has heart towards the hurting and the lost and reaches out to them through his ministry. I also believe that Christians are concerned that the same type of liberalism that infiltrated the 19th and 20th Century Mainline churches is trying to rear its head in the modern evangelical churches. Denying the power of God and the Divine inspiration of His Word, the Holy Bible, led to the decline of the European Church and its influence on society. Thus, it is necessary for Christians to be watchful of any worldly influence trying to compromise the truths of God’s Word creeping into Bible-believing Churches. Although the Gates of Hell will not prevail against the true Church of Christ, the Body of Christian believers, the Devil is a roaring lion moving to and fro looking to devour the vulnerable among us.
Remember, it really doesn’t matter what I say or Pastor Nathan says or anyone else says. It only matters what God says, As long as Christians teach and preach and try to live His Word then that should be the basis for the unity which Paul spoke of above. As I said however, Christians are fallible and sinful and so we may not reach that ideal in this world but we will in the eternal world. Keep your eyes on Him Dustin and do not be discouraged.
Thank you very much for your reply. i hope i didnt make you feel badly, i purposely opened be saying i appreciated your article. I could tell you were simply presenting you thoughts in a very thoughtful and productive way. You were very kind and i had no problem with any of it, I really only meant the comments posted by others were very negative in my opinion. i know we are all fallible but i dont think we should support such talk. i dont know how much moderator power you have or what your views of free speech, but i would appreciate if the overtly negative comments are deleted.
To your eschatological doctrine, its tough because i see both sides. I was saved during the Revelation series Rich gave, i felt God spoke to me through Prov 14:4 “Where there are no oxen, the manger is clean, but with the strength of the ox comes an abundant harvest”. It was a verse i remembered and always thought was pointless and obvious, but i saw it and the whole bible through a new lense of Christ where the ox is the Church and (ironically given my above post) not to give up on a sometimes messy church. It finally made more sense, and I felt God showed me that i really didnt know Him, because i never realized that its all really about Christ.
To that end, i understand Rich’s view on the land issue. Although i believe the land is Israel’s as an everlasting covenent because it fits what i know of God nature, i dont feel that confident about that belief. Jesus never seemed to mind or take issue with the fact that he lived in a time when Israel was under roman rule. Others seemed to care but he never gave instruction on fighting for the promised land. Jesus also said of “the Law and the Prophets… [He came]… to fullfill them.” (Matt 5:17) We all believe Jesus fullfilled the law, but do we really believe he fullfilled the prophets too? Isaiah talks of the “vineyard on the fertile hillside” (Is 5:1), and is constantly prophesying that there will be “a day” when everyone has there own vineyard. But its almost like Jesus is saying in John 15:1 “I am the true vine” that Isaiah is talking about. Its obvious when Isaiah talks about bringing Israel back that he’s talking about Jesus, but Jesus gives us a hint that even prophecies about a vineyard or land could be about Him.
You might say, thats just a prophesy, a vision of the future, but what God did was different, He made a promise to Abraham. I agree, it seems different, and the literal land prob should be theirs, but Paul even says that “No matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ.” (2 Cor 1:20)
But the best argument may be Gal 3:15-24 “The promises were spoken to Abraham and his seed. The Scripture does not say ‘and to seeds’ meaning many people, but ‘and to your seed’ meaning one person, who is Christ.” Granted he is talking about the insufficiency of the Law to fulfill the promise of God, but he says “the Seed to whom the promise referred.” Not only is he saying the whole purpose (and i’ll add good purpose) of the Law is to “lead us” to Christ, and it does so because Jesus IS the Promise. The law leads us to the Promise, and the Promise makes us long to follow the Law. Whether or not the land was only promised to Abraham and not to other hebrews seems harder to know for sure.
Also hard to know for sure is the timeline of Genesis. Jesus himself admits that He, and therefore probably the Father and the Spirit, starts by “speaking figuratively.” (John 16:25). I say “starts by” because He says a day will come when it will be totally clear. God shows in the bible that He doesnt mind hiding his point inside a story. Genesis has so many similarities to the epic of Gilamesh as unbelievers will point out, but what are significant are the differences. In the epic the gods create man to serve them, but God says its to enjoy and have a relationship. in the epic the gods create the flood but get scared because they loose control of it, but God says He never lost control of the flood. In the epic the survivors made it because they were amazing sailors and fought back the flood, God says the survivors made it because they were holy and were protected by God. I believe the flood literally happened, but i my only point is that the story of the real event was written in the bible to speak those people of that time who knew the epic of gilgamesh first, and us second, and without knowing the context, its hard to interpret properly. The 7 days of creation point to the importance of rest, forward to the sabbath rest and point forward especially to Christ, and probably to so much more that we will find out in heaven. I personally believe that God made the earth in 7 literal days, but i think its a big mistake to fight about it. Look at Adam, God probably formed him to look like a 20 year old when he was only an hour old. i dont think there is any question that God, at the very least, gave the universe the appearance of age. the idea then that we would argue an unprovable point to unbelievers who already see the other fallen parts of us; our greed, our selfishness, etc, and we hand them “know it all” to the list. I just wish we would focus on telling them how much we mess up, and who our hope is. Where it comes from.
When it comes to saying “hard to know” about what the bible means, i know it sounds liberal and wishy washy, but i strongly disagree with that viewpoint. Whatever Rich (or I) thinks about the end of the world timeline, beginning of world timeline, or promises to Abraham and the land of Israel in 2010 before the coming of the “that day” prophesied in Isaiah, this much is true; we both believe the most offense, most important, equally (in the world’s eyes) hard to believe. We are believe that Jesus is the only way to God, that he literally healed the blind, raised the dead, and Himself rose from the dead. (and he and I are also very pro-life in our view) That part has never been in question in Rich’s sermons or in my mind. and i re-iterate my concern that people would consider alienating “liberal christians” just because of his ideas in other areas. I say God bless republicans and democrats.
Rich said (in the video you embedded) that saying you know Gods will takes away accountability to God. No question we’ve seen that in the past in all kinds of wars, fighting popes, slavery, oppression of indians, cults. Im not saying that people who are strongly aligned to a political party are that bad, but its worth examining in each of our hearts. When republicans know that Christians will vote for them no matter what, they loose accountablity. I totally agree with proirity voting, and that being pro-life is definately the most issue, but IF a republican is also against immigrants, the homeless, the uninsured, but for gambling, unfair benefits for weathly, and so on, then i think we keep them accountable if we stop supporting them. dont think im for the insurance law, i agree its almost certainly a disaster, but to not even act like helping the poor is a call of God (and ive heard people act that way) is major folly; Prov 21:13 “if a man shuts his ears to the cry of the poor, he too will cry out and not be answered”. and republicans had a lot of time from 2000-2006 as a majority to institute the cross state insurance swap idea and tort reform and other good ideas to help the poor. and income redistribution definitely doesnt work but i dont think people should act disgusted as if the person suggesting it has an evil heart or is a secret communist.
Sorry for going on but my main point is and has always been, no matter what your view on interpretation issues, we the church should look at our priorities before we start fighting with each other and with unbelievers. figure out what are truly the most important tenets of our faith, and know that good hearted, intellegent people who also believe the bible is infallible can have a different opinion on some of the interpretations of the texts at the beginning and at the end. in my opinion which i have just laid out, i believe its a bad idea, in some cases really hard to prove, and its results in us all being mean to each other and leading others away from Christ. again, James, i really dont mean you, your thesis is very kind and God bless you indeed!!!
Dustin,
Reading your post, I fear you may be more influenced by your love or respect for your pastor than for the Word of God. I hope it’s not the case, but you must watch it! The last days are perilous. Watch and pray!
I am disturbed over the fact that various people on this website and elsewhere have forgotten about the 6 day war . My understanding is that this event is what enlarged Israel’s territory from it’s 1967 borders. They were attacked on a high holy day, were completely taken by surprise, outnumbered, outmilitiaed but won the war and took the territory now under dispute. If this is indeed correct, would it not point to God’s support as in days of old?
Jewish occupied territory has been reported as flourishing and gracious to ALL other nationalities. As a matter of fact, the Palestinians who live in Jewish occupied territory flourish (better than in their own areas) as well and are treated with respect. I guess we should penalize the Jews for showing strength against the constant shellings they have to live with.
I have never heard of another instance in which territory acceeded through war should be returned to the very people who provoked the war in the first place. We need to look at the whole truth, not just postulating on “fairness” Please reply.